2001 Lincoln LS - 3.9L Charging Issues

[dfastrack]

Hello everyone, hope all is well.

Need a huge favor from some of you pro Ford/Jag techs. Have a customer with a 2001 Linc. LS 3.9L complaining of a current draw, an excessive one at that!!!! Charge light comes on while driving,and will run battery down over night.alt and battery has been replaced and ranges between 13.8 and 16.5 volts. not acceptable!!! Current draw is 7.5 amps with key off. i started by removing EVERY fuse and relay on vehicle; didn't stop, still 7.5 amp draw.

TSBs jump all over the place on this issue, so was wondering if any of the pro ford/jag guys might have some input on a solid start to find the short. Losing a ton of hair here, hoping to get some help before i go bald--LOL. just some extra info; sometimes windows, seats work while driving other times not. Hard to get it to do the same thing twice (key just in the on pos/not running all is fine).

Thanks for any help maybe i can return the favor some day, thanks

[steven kiser]

i've had issues with bcm's before but before i go any further here, are there more than one amp alternator available? was the connector at the alternator replaced as recommended, and what was done, if anything, to the car just prior to this issue. was it jump started or was it used to jump start another? i've seen bcm's that have been replaced and the top screw was left out causing the module to warp and pull away from fuse block. pushing it back in without securing it will only temporarily solve the issue if it does at all. the body control module will act up and do strange things during voltage issues, the intermittent power seat operation may be a result of this. on a few occasions i've had to purchase alternators from ford because of after market issues. the connector that plugs into the alternator has been a culprit of many alternator failures at my shop. a suggestion at this time would be if the plug is bad and is replaced replace the alternator as well. it may have been spiked.

[Pauls Automotive]

Hello and welcome to the forum. First this post should probably be put into the "Repair" section. Now as far as the car goes I've seen altentor on ford products that short out internally. A symptom of that is the altentor will feel warm to the touch when the car is cold. Also you can hook up you MM and watch the dram and unhook the big wire that leads to the battery.

[ricmorin]

Just making sure you checked all the fuses here.....there are 3 junction boxes on this vehicle. One is underhood, one is in the RF footwell area and the other is in the trunk.

[dfastrack]

Yes, we are aware of the 3 locations of fuses and relays. As for the plug on alt--looked nice when i changed it, very clean, no corrosion on pwr wire. However I do agree with the possibility of a BCM or PCM.

As we all know these type of issues take time to find, we are just working it in between other work.

Thanks to all, really appreciate the feedback.

[dfastrack]

Hello and welcome to the forum. First this post should probably be put into the "Repair" section. Now as far as the car goes I've seen altentor on ford products that short out internally. A symptom of that is the altentor will feel warm to the touch when the car is cold. Also you can hook up you MM and watch the dram and unhook the big wire that leads to the battery.

yeah should of been in repair section,sorry bout that.havent done the feel test on alt yet--good idea, guess it is possible for a new alt to be bad.its pullin 7.5 amp current draw--key off,and all fuses/relays removed.man hope its not bad wiring somewhere might take a lifetime to find.thanks for the input

[ricmorin]

Yes, we are aware of the 3 locations of fuses and relays. As for the plug on alt--looked nice when i changed it, very clean, no corrosion on pwr wire. However I do agree with the possibility of a BCM or PCM.

As we all know these type of issues take time to find, we are just working it in between other work.

Thanks to all, really appreciate the feedback.

OK Cool. No disrespect meant. Just making sure you hit all of them. Did you pull the big 175a fuse in the trunk too? If so, the only other thing I see not fused is the alternator. From the diagram I have, it looks like the first wall of fuses are the 175 in the trunk and 3 30a fuses F432, F427 and F429 in the trunk as well. Then it's all sub-fuses from there.

[dfastrack]

Yes, we are aware of the 3 locations of fuses and relays. As for the plug on alt--looked nice when i changed it, very clean, no corrosion on pwr wire. However I do agree with the possibility of a BCM or PCM.

As we all know these type of issues take time to find, we are just working it in between other work.

Thanks to all, really appreciate the feedback.

OK Cool. No disrespect meant. Just making sure you hit all of them. Did you pull the big 175a fuse in the trunk too? If so, the only other thing I see not fused is the alternator. From the diagram I have, it looks like the first wall of fuses are the 175 in the trunk and 3 30a fuses F432, F427 and F429 in the trunk as well. Then it's all sub-fuses from there.

hmmmmm didn't see that one. 175 amp fuse? workin this in on down time but will look----really?? 175 amp fuse?? anyway hot on the idea on a possible short between battery and front end (starter/alt) man just hate to put this customer through 5-25 hrs of labor for a easy fix, no offense taken!! BEGGARS CANT BE CHOOSEEEEEEEE SO THANKS SO MUCH!!!

I have noticed that car running i do a voltage check and it reads 13.9 volts looks good to me but as i bring the RPM up voltage comes up as well--17.5 volts idle back down 13.5--13.9. kicks charging light on/locks up window and seat functions and some times will lock up steering wheel controls/example push the volume up button on steering wheel and instead of turning up the volume--it will change the channel--WHATS UP WITH THAT?? BUT with the motor off---key just in the on position everything works perfect but will still completly deplete a battery in oh bout 6 hrs. really hate working on stuff like this but now is become one of those deals--i whipped the wall and won!!! lol.

May needs a few buds to get it done but hey nothing is easy when it comes to a jag/lincoln. your input will not be forgotten--in this business you can know it all and run into something that has got ya stumped but i guess at this point althought i'm hating it right now but is a learning exp. AGAIN THANKS FOR THE INPUT--

[ricmorin]

The power distribution shows one. 175 is a biggee but I've seen plenty of big fuses blown. Just did a 125 on a Tundra. Weird job and just a few items were inoperative. You'd think that with the main fuse blown, almost nothing would work. These big fuses are hard to tell if they're blown by looking too. This one looked fine but was open.

Your description of the charging problem almost sounds like an open diode on the alternator. Check the AC ripple voltage or scope the output.

[dfastrack]

The power distribution shows one. 175 is a biggee but I've seen plenty of big fuses blown. Just did a 125 on a Tundra. Weird job and just a few items were inoperative. You'd think that with the main fuse blown, almost nothing would work. These big fuses are hard to tell if they're blown by looking too. This one looked fine but was open.

Your description of the charging problem almost sounds like an open diode on the alternator. Check the AC ripple voltage or scope the output.

found that 175 amp fuse,backside of trunk fuse panel,did make a discovery if you might have some insight,2 power leads go to front end from trunk---one of those leads goes into that 175 amp fuse--the other goes directly to the battery and has a jumper lead that feeds trunk fuse panel.the 175 amp lead is the one with the short--one going directly to the battery is fine until i hook that jumper wire up to fuse panel--lift is tied up waiting on some tranny parts so i havent been able to do a ripple test directly off alt,not liking this car right now!!!! i,m sure you can relate---seems like when you,ve got a million things to do something like this shows up,never fails.guess its part of the buss. anyway really want to THANK YOU for all your input.do you show where that lead off that 175 amp leads to?? alt--or starter? again the one going directly to the battery is fine/no draw,thanks

[liljoe]

The 175 goes to the back of the alternator, if you remove that fuse and the draw leaves with it, the alt is prob your problem.

[dfastrack]

my only issue with that is as i hopefully explained correctly is yes the wire that feeds the 175 amp fuse--once connected does appear to have a short--- ( pulls about 7.5 amps) now the other wire goes directly to the battery it has a 6 inch jumper wire that feeds that rear fuse panel and when i hook that up current draw is back even with that 175 amp wire dis-connected.thats whats kinda buggin me here--if it was just that one power wire this could be traced a little easier. not sure it will back feed like it sounds and really have just had a small amount of time to dig deeper into this,guess not that excited about these type of problems,sounds as you have more patience than i do--LOL. dont know what i can do but owe you big time for atleast trying to help. thankfully we have several shops locally and in similier situations we all work together to help. just no one has had alot of exp with these.so again thanks so much for the input,seems people are more willing to just help themselves these days instead of offering a helping hand,you are a good man!! thanks

[steven kiser]

if i were a guessing man i'd look at the amp or any add on. now not to sound off base here but what i see a lot is dead end draws. if you disconnect the battery cable and run a meter between the post and cable you will probably see a significant draw. that's being caused by ramp up amp draw. on the other hand if you use a test light, connecting the alligator end to the cable and the probe point onto the battery post, with them set you remove cable from battery. if the light lights up you in fact have a draw, if it doesn't then you're chasing a ghost. having the test light set up that way bridges the gap and allows the relays that need ramp voltage to maintain and not cause a draw. 7.5 amp is a determined amount. i looked at the fuse panels to see if there was a 7.5 amp fuse and there was none listed. i would quickly scan all three fuse panels as well as the tow distribution point for a 7.5 amp fuse. if there is one pull it out and see if your draw disappears. i can't be absolutely sure on this but there is an accepted kam draw. i think it's usually around 5 volts. another think you can do is if you have a volt meter connected between the battery and cable is with them connected touch the cable to post then remove, this will charge any ramp system and stop the draw. i usually leave them touching for about 15 seconds. hope this helps and i'm just yapping along so please don't look at it as lecturing or questioning your ability.

[dfastrack]

thanks--no add on,s have all fuses/relays removed--just missed that 175 amp one while having the current draw (under hood/r kick panel/trunk. know what ur thinkin!! lol.good luck,huh? possible any of bcm,pcm,ecm being un-fused??

[dfastrack]

i am going to take your advice and dis-connet alt output/input wires to put my mind at ease to see what happens,we just replaced alt/battery and the results were the same. in the first post i complain about the windows sometimes work--others not. there is a module in that drivers door--not sure what it is but if the alt test i do fails--im gonna be looking at that module really hard and to start i will do the heat/warm test.anything pulling this kind of current will produce atleast some heat,as you well know these kind of symtoms are or can be hard to solve.we are not just a part changer meaning i refuse to just put new parts on a vehicle without knowing for sure they need it---- not all shops follow those standards.be curious if you know if BCM/PCM/ECM. in some capacity has constant voltage going to them----thanks

[steven kiser]

there is voltage being supplied to modules as keep alive but no where near the amp load that you're describing.
look for accessories that remain on with the key in the off position such as power seats. there is also a function that allows accessories to remain powered up with key off until drivers door is opened. i've had faulty door switches before cause issues like this one. however, not on this particular model.

[dfastrack]

hate to ask but gonna do it anyway ( stupid question of the day!!!!) as stated we replace the alt---took the old one to have it checked,it passed----even though it passed can it still have a short??? is that possible?? reason i ask is at idle voltage is about 13.7 ( still will kick on charging light) NOW BRING RPM UP TO OH LETS SAY 1800 RPM---voltage climbs to 16 volts.---------- is it possible the tester at oriellys does not turn fast enough to duplicate the problem/issue?? going to try to take a big bite out of this issue this wk--customer is chomping at the bit,so gotta take a crack at this.ANYONE WANNA TRADE ME JOBS THIS WK??? I,LL SHOVEL CRAP ALL WEEK IN EXCHANGE!!!!! LOL!! i am NOT EXCITED about this at all!!! gotta full head of hair now but sure to be bald by fri!!! probably gonna need some assistance on a hair implant----god sometimes i hate my job!!!! lol---happy holidays everyone!!!--i,m haven a 01 ls for thanksgiving

[steven kiser]

the pcm controls the output of the alternator. it isn't shutting it down. with it commanding full field it will exceed 16 volts. there is no internal regulator in the alternator. unfortunately it appears your next step would be a pcm or at least a back probe. i took a quick look at the diagram and it appears that there are two wires that feed between the alternator and pcm. they appear to be direct so back probing should be easy. there may be an internal harness issue shorting to power signaling the alternator to max out. sounds like the pcm has failed causing multiple issues. i'm wondering if someone crossed cables during a jump start.

[dfastrack]

the pcm??? is that located in the passenger side?? did,nt get it up on the rack till 3 today,we dis-conneted the alt----still has a draw, gonna un-plug pcm in the morning as well as the FEEL TEST.still willing to shovel crap in exchange for workin on this lincoln!!! hey thanks for the help!! i will figure out a way to repay,feel bad being a pest---single plug pcm or dual?? thanks

[steven kiser]

pcm is located in the right rear of the engine compartment. try pulling the pcm relay. it's in the fuse box under the hood. as your looking down at it look at a way so the 4 larger relays are facing down to the left. the pcm relay will be the lower left one. another thing i do is if there is a large draw is i touch each relay and see if one is warm. that will be one that's activated or stuck on. there are usually more of the same # relay in the panel. i'll just take another and swap to see if it gets a command on. if it doesn't trip i know that there is a pretty good chance the relay's bad.