Just A Few Tips I Thought I Should Post

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steven kiser
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Just A Few Tips I Thought I Should Post

Post by steven kiser »

#1 When replacing the injectors on a 6.0 Ford always replace the plugs on the rail with the update kits. Just got stung by one. We put injectors in this one a while ago and it came in with a long crank before starting. Put an injector pump in it and when cold fires right off. When warm after a hot soak will not hit. The high pressure for the injectors won't go over 300 pounds.

#2 If you replaced a cat a while back and customer returns with a low efficiency code and it's turning into a huge battle take an anti fouler, drill out the center so the ox will screw in and use it as a spacer to pull the sensor further out of the pipe. Works like a charm to get the sensor reading needed to keep the code off.
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Re: Just A Few Tips I Thought I Should Post

Post by Tim Martin »

steven kiser wrote: #2 If you replaced a cat a while back and customer returns with a low efficiency code and it's turning into a huge battle take an anti fouler, drill out the center so the ox will screw in and use it as a spacer to pull the sensor further out of the pipe. Works like a charm to get the sensor reading needed to keep the code off.
Your'e claiming that works? Gotta see. Have one in the shop right now. Gonna experiment, trust me.
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Re: Just A Few Tips I Thought I Should Post

Post by Tim Martin »

steven kiser wrote:#1 When replacing the injectors on a 6.0 Ford always replace the plugs on the rail with the update kits. Just got stung by one. We put injectors in this one a while ago and it came in with a long crank before starting. Put an injector pump in it and when cold fires right off. When warm after a hot soak will not hit. The high pressure for the injectors won't go over 300 pounds.
We will not take one of these apart unless we can reseal the entire top end including the plugs. An yes, make sure it is the upgraded ones cause Ford still has some of the originals floating in their parts system yet.
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Re: Just A Few Tips I Thought I Should Post

Post by steven kiser »

Tim Martin wrote:
steven kiser wrote: #2 If you replaced a cat a while back and customer returns with a low efficiency code and it's turning into a huge battle take an anti fouler, drill out the center so the ox will screw in and use it as a spacer to pull the sensor further out of the pipe. Works like a charm to get the sensor reading needed to keep the code off.
Your'e claiming that works? Gotta see. Have one in the shop right now. Gonna experiment, trust me.

It works. Jeggs uses them when cats are removed on performance exhausts
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Re: Just A Few Tips I Thought I Should Post

Post by ricmorin »

Would that not be tampering?
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Re: Just A Few Tips I Thought I Should Post

Post by brother bubba »

ricmorin wrote:Would that not be tampering?
....

"Function temporarily disabled for diagnostic purposes". That's not really "TAMPERING". Or Is it ???

...
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Re: Just A Few Tips I Thought I Should Post

Post by ricmorin »

This is.....
Works like a charm to get the sensor reading needed to keep the code off.
With all due respect to Steve and others, if you put a cat on a vehicle and it throws an efficiency code, you either used a cheap aftermarket cat or you have a defective OE unit. And if there is a sensor issue, it needs a sensor. Sometimes there's a PCM reprogram for that condition. There's no place for an anti-fouler on a cat, and here it would be an instant emissions failure.

Steve, I'm surprised at you!!! Shame!!!! :o
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Re: Just A Few Tips I Thought I Should Post

Post by steven kiser »

ricmorin wrote:This is.....
Works like a charm to get the sensor reading needed to keep the code off.
With all due respect to Steve and others, if you put a cat on a vehicle and it throws an efficiency code, you either used a cheap aftermarket cat or you have a defective OE unit. And if there is a sensor issue, it needs a sensor. Sometimes there's a PCM reprogram for that condition. There's no place for an anti-fouler on a cat, and here it would be an instant emissions failure.

Steve, I'm surprised at you!!! Shame!!!! :o
I actually agree about the efficiency issue as well as quality workmanship but on rare occasions something like this may be called for. The vehicle I used it on was a 2000 Mitsubishi Galant with California emissions. I couldn't find an exhaust system that was correct anywhere and I searched. It was here for a week and I finally just gave in and made the exhaust. The front pipe was completely rotted away and it had the extra cat for California emissions. The dealer had changed #'s and it came up as a non California pipe. I drilled and installed an 02 bung in it, installed a universal cat and used my bender to make the pipe from the cat to the muffler. Wasn't real happy with the readings from the 02, no update to change parameters so I installed the spacer. Nothing I would do on a regular basis especially since I am an inspection station and am pretty strict. Possibly because I'm so busy, had pretty much exhausted any possibility of getting the correct replacement system and no matter what the customer agreed upon now if there is a problem in the future it's going to be my fault. Another point I have issue with is the feds allow some manufacturers to pay a penalty and then reprogram the parameters so failing cats will now pass. It's basically the same as installing spacers. I refuse to do it, customer goes to dealer and gets a legal cheat done and I loose a customer plus all he tells I'm a rip off. Loose loose.................................... Would I install a spacer just to avoid replacing a cat ? No I wouldn't but I did on this after all was exhausted even after I installed a cat to reprogram the parameters.
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Re: Just A Few Tips I Thought I Should Post

Post by Tim Martin »

Well there is times you do what you gotta do cause thats the only thing left to do. That is one gripe I have with the Feds writing rules. They write them in a perfect environment bubble an they seem to forget they do not have all the bases covered. Using emissions as an illustration. We too have run across applications where the cat is no longer available - then what do we do? We innovate an that is what Steve was doing, innovating to the need of the moment. My question to anyone that finds fault with what we do in those kind of situations is: What would you have done? Sometime back I had a situation similar an another shop told me to call my local state representative or call the EPA. You gotta be kidding! Like alot a good that woulda done. Big wow.

Steve, thanks for using your head an passing on this tip. I am not one to bypass laws but at times ya do what ya gots to do. Do we innovate like that all the time? No. Just when there seems to be no other option.
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Re: Just A Few Tips I Thought I Should Post

Post by ricmorin »

Thanks for the back story Steve. I've never thought of you as anything but a 'do it right' kind of guy.
steven kiser wrote:
ricmorin wrote:This is.....
Works like a charm to get the sensor reading needed to keep the code off.
With all due respect to Steve and others, if you put a cat on a vehicle and it throws an efficiency code, you either used a cheap aftermarket cat or you have a defective OE unit. And if there is a sensor issue, it needs a sensor. Sometimes there's a PCM reprogram for that condition. There's no place for an anti-fouler on a cat, and here it would be an instant emissions failure.

Steve, I'm surprised at you!!! Shame!!!! :o
I actually agree about the efficiency issue as well as quality workmanship but on rare occasions something like this may be called for. The vehicle I used it on was a 2000 Mitsubishi Galant with California emissions. I couldn't find an exhaust system that was correct anywhere and I searched. It was here for a week and I finally just gave in and made the exhaust. The front pipe was completely rotted away and it had the extra cat for California emissions. The dealer had changed #'s and it came up as a non California pipe. I drilled and installed an 02 bung in it, installed a universal cat and used my bender to make the pipe from the cat to the muffler. Wasn't real happy with the readings from the 02, no update to change parameters so I installed the spacer. Nothing I would do on a regular basis especially since I am an inspection station and am pretty strict. Possibly because I'm so busy, had pretty much exhausted any possibility of getting the correct replacement system and no matter what the customer agreed upon now if there is a problem in the future it's going to be my fault. Another point I have issue with is the feds allow some manufacturers to pay a penalty and then reprogram the parameters so failing cats will now pass. It's basically the same as installing spacers. I refuse to do it, customer goes to dealer and gets a legal cheat done and I loose a customer plus all he tells I'm a rip off. Loose loose.................................... Would I install a spacer just to avoid replacing a cat ? No I wouldn't but I did on this after all was exhausted even after I installed a cat to reprogram the parameters.
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Re: Just A Few Tips I Thought I Should Post

Post by Rich »

Reading all this makes me happy to know that the Michigan Government does not care about the spotted penguins and we still don't care if a car meets emission standards. in this state if cars had to pass a safety/emission test we would all be riding bikes.
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Re: Just A Few Tips I Thought I Should Post

Post by Jeff @ Able Auto »

Same here in Fl Rich. Some of theses jacked up hoopty mobiles would be crushed!
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Re: Just A Few Tips I Thought I Should Post

Post by ricmorin »

They've tried to kill the Inspection and emission testing here a few times in the past. I'm glad they haven't succeeded. Even with the law we still have some junkers out there.
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Re: Just A Few Tips I Thought I Should Post

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I think it's a good idea the way it's now being done. Plug into the vehicles computer as opposed to the tail pipe and a dynamometer. I also still have a few clunkers I work on but in all reality they're not really in that bad of shape emission wise and don't really put on that many miles. What I don't really understand is why we still allow vehicles that reach a certain age to drop out of the emission testing. When the program first started there were grandfathered years where vehicles didn't have to pass emissions. Today the new vehicles of that era are now outside the emission testing. I was reading that there are more older vehicles on the road since the early 70's because people are hanging on to them. I have a lot of customer that their third child is on a vehicle that was passed down through the ranks.

This business is slowly changing again. Ten or 15 years ago it was all maintenance with no real catastrophic repairs. The average invoice was two or three hundred dollars mostly having to do with fluid changes and tires with the usual three or four brake jobs a week. I'm finding now that it's drifting back to major repairs. Before if an engine or transmission blew in my corner of the world the car was traded in or junked. I made a lot of money paying scrap value and repairing them for resale. Today I'm selling two to three thousand dollar jobs on an increasing scale. Many of the engines I replace will include a complete going over and replacement of any worn parts. People are starting to decide if they're going to spend three grand on an engine they want to drive care free. I have two on the lot now that were quoted 5 to 6 grand for engines and additional repairs and are being repaired. Used engines are increasing and people are (seems to me) spending because they want to fix not because they have to. When I install a used engine I replace timing belts, water pumps, belts, hoses, tune it up, and basically go right through it. It was and still is the only way I do it and up until 6 or 8 months ago people wouldn't want to do it that way. They wanted drop and go and I didn't want the headaches associated with the people returning with complaints.

Twenty years ago I was making good money in the business then it went to making a decent living with a few benefits. Now I think it's starting to swing back. What I mean by good money is having an extra 30 or 40 grand in the account at the end of the year to take and invest in something other than the business. Being able to afford a new vehicle every five years as opposed to fifteen. I'm not needing to scramble to pay bills or throw personal money into the business to make ends meet. By personal I mean the money I make selling vehicles and having the check made out to me instead of the shop. Not really personal, belongs in the shop fund in all reality but feels nice other places. Cash repairs are increasing and things are loosening up again. There was a time I had seven techs on the floor and over time I decreased it to three with my wife running the office then back to four without my wife, five with a bookkeeper, now I'm running with an added tech and my son answering the phone and dealing with customers and I really need another stud mechanic. People are willing to invest major money into vehicles instead of trading them in and I need to keep up with it. The dealers in my area are dead and the reputable shops are buried with work and it's been sliding this way for a few years and there is no sign of it slowing down.
Last edited by steven kiser on Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Just A Few Tips I Thought I Should Post

Post by steven kiser »

I need to address the repair it correctly issue. Basically Ric is correct when stating he thought I was a do it right or don't do it shop. If something is worth doing it needs to be done correctly. I don't repair a vehicle the way the customer wants or feels it should be done. I've refused to and had vehicles removed from my lot. My postings in the past have attested to that and I remain that way today. Maybe I shouldn't have posted that as a tip but I did and have to deal with it.

Back when it was accepted practice to remove converters and install test pipes was in full swing I refused to do so, I refused to use any chip in a pcm unless it was oem and programmed correctly. I'm known for that type of shop and will stay that way. A vehicle comes in needing a converter I'll only use oem or equal to. A vehicle with 80k and a bad plug gets a tune up, a weak ball joint gets replaced not greased so it's tight for an inspection, non reading cats on vehicles don't get cut out and straight pipes welded in, I don't play around with emission systems or put ice bags on plenums (a few years ago) so the vehicle would pass an emission test. So why did I do it to the mitsu? The answer is I shouldn't have but I had exhausted all avenues of finding a replacement exhaust especially with California emissions. The front pipe had a pre cat in it and it was junk. I found a front pipe non California and installed it. Cut a hole and installed a pre cat sensor, welded a cat in and installed a downstream sensor and made new pipes and installed a muffler that fit my needs. Vehicle sounded great but the check engine light came on.

There was little information available for this car and the added emission restrictions didn't make it easier. The 4 gas analyzer confirmed it was fine although I couldn't check the nox. The issue was the California emission programming in the pcm. Maybe I could have searched and found a non California pcm but I felt that was unrealistic so I installed the spacer to bring the readings within the programmed limits. Was this correct? In a yes or no situation the answer would be no. Is it legal? In a situation where I believe a vehicle should work as designed, no. Do the emission readings fall within the legal limits with the analyzer, yes they do. I can defend without making excuses and prove it with the readings. The sad part is nothing was available to repair it correctly within the black and white limitations. I know there are people out there that will install spacers to turn check engine lights off as well as others that will install them and charge for converters and absurd diagnostic services. I could have made it work without the converter if I wanted to but I didn't. Did I make a repair correctly? No I didn't.

I exhaust all avenues (in my opinion) made the necessary repairs, they pass the emission requirements but to turn the light off I had to lighten the rear sensors readings. I guess I was wrong but in all reality I don't feel like it. I guess this is one of the real rare times where I'm on the tight wire and lean towards the customer. Legally and in my self imposed shop requirements I was dead wrong but it felt kind of O.K.
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Re: Just A Few Tips I Thought I Should Post

Post by Rich »

Jeff @ Able Auto wrote:Same here in Fl Rich. Some of theses jacked up hoopty mobiles would be crushed!
I understand, cuz if Florida ever passed a law where would 3/4 of the Michigan population life in the winter? :wink:
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