2007 Ford Ranger 2.3L A/T - Main Oil Seal Time?

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2007 Ford Ranger 2.3L A/T - Main Oil Seal Time?

Post by Sauvageaus »

We did an engine job few months ago, within a few thousand miles the main oil seal was leaking. The Engine company is paying us for the job and started up a claim.
We did the work and filed all of the paperwork. In Mitchell Estimator the Main Bearing Oil Seal shows 9.7 hours to do Includes R & I Oil Pan. So that is what we sent as a bill. A guy calls us and tells us that he uses All Data and that they say it only takes 5.4 Hours to replace the Main Bearing Oil Seal.

We don't have All Data so was wondering if anyone on here does and if they would be able to check this out and see if it says anything about the R&I of the Oil Pan on All Data?
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Re: 2007 Ford Ranger 2.3L A/T - Main Oil Seal Time?

Post by brianp87 »

Did you have to remove the oil pan? I do not have alldata. Chilton and motor both do not show the time only front. I looked up flexplate for reference and 5.40 seems in line with that as long as the oil pan did not have to be removed. If it did have to come off do not forget to get them for that gasket, oil etc.....
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Re: 2007 Ford Ranger 2.3L A/T - Main Oil Seal Time?

Post by Sauvageaus »

brianp87 wrote:Did you have to remove the oil pan? I do not have alldata. Chilton and motor both do not show the time only front. I looked up flexplate for reference and 5.40 seems in line with that as long as the oil pan did not have to be removed. If it did have to come off do not forget to get them for that gasket, oil etc.....
we did pull the Oil Pan and Oil and Gasket were included, but he's trying to tell me 5.4 is all it should take.
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Re: 2007 Ford Ranger 2.3L A/T - Main Oil Seal Time?

Post by brianp87 »

If you had to pull the pan then no it is not enough. Im not sure on the procedure Ive only seen two piece seals that require pan removal but Im not familiar with the vehicle.
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Re: 2007 Ford Ranger 2.3L A/T - Main Oil Seal Time?

Post by steven kiser »

All Data shows 5.4 hours. It's a solid seal held in a bolt on casing.
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Re: 2007 Ford Ranger 2.3L A/T - Main Oil Seal Time?

Post by Sauvageaus »

steven kiser wrote:All Data shows 5.4 hours. It's a solid seal held in a bolt on casing.
Then why does Mitchell Show 9.7 Hours?
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Re: 2007 Ford Ranger 2.3L A/T - Main Oil Seal Time?

Post by Jeff @ Able Auto »

I dont think Alldata is allowing for pan removal. If you look at Mitchell time for pan and subtract from seal it is 5.4 hrs. When I sourced the part it is only avail as retainer assy which requires pan removal. Stick to your guns and get paid.
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Re: 2007 Ford Ranger 2.3L A/T - Main Oil Seal Time?

Post by steven kiser »

This shouldn't be a big issue but I know that insurance or warranty companies will bust your stones on everything. If it were in my shop I would probably be showing an order of 1189.86. Removing the sealer from the pan is going to be a job in itself so I would charge an extra hour. Oil change is in order obviously. I would also charge for a good solid look at shaft for dings and scratches and possibly checking it for true. I have seen these seals loose the spring and have it damage the shaft.
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Re: 2007 Ford Ranger 2.3L A/T - Main Oil Seal Time?

Post by steven kiser »

Since I'm just sitting at the shop counter waiting for the place to warm up and the Naprosin to kick in I thought of a few little tips I've learned along the way in dealing with warranty, insurance, and other third party payment systems. They will do whatever it takes to save their company money because it's their job. I don't look at it and deal with it at a personal level. Many of these companies utilize a minimum of two labor guides. They will ask what system I use and then start mumbling and asking how my day is and other stuff and all the while they usually have Mitchell and All Data already on their screen and are looking for the cheapest one to quote off of. They will come back at you using the cheapest one and sometimes try to lay the "It will take less time since it was just out" line on you. No where does it say in any labor guide that it takes less time. Always start way high and never agree to what they say right off. Look at the description in the guide as to what you are doing includes then think of everything else that has to be done and write it down on a piece of paper. I'll use this job as an example and hopefully a few things will help. To diagnose this issue I would steam clean vehicle (one hour) put on lift and go over it add dye and road test, recheck to confirm (one hour) start a work order, contact manufacturer (.5). These are a few quick additional charges I would immediately add to order. .5 to R&R hood, .3 to unlock or program radio, .5 prep time and make sure they know you always use plastic on fenders, tape it down and use seat and steering wheel covers .5 to examine crank shaft for damage and amount of side to side walk checking for possible main bearing wear, .5 to package and mail defective seal plus postage fee, .5 to check for good positive crankcase ventilation, and one hour to properly road test vehicle at around town and highway speeds not forgetting under a load and passing speeds. As a rule I usually am able to add a few hours to the job. If you or someone you know knows an insurance appraiser ask him what can be added to an order. I have a buddy that is an appraiser and during the time we were really tight I asked him and was a bit stunned at what they would pay for as an additional charge. They won't tell you but will allow it if you ask. If all these items and possibly a few more if I really looked into it (don't forget the oil used in diagnosing) were added to this order you would most likely have to give up a few (I would leave them on the order and show them as a discount) but a few will be allowed and it doesn't take many to give you a few extra hours plus materials.
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Re: 2007 Ford Ranger 2.3L A/T - Main Oil Seal Time?

Post by steven kiser »

How are you making out? Another thing I would like to point out on this or any job where you are dealing with a warranty company. I am a Jasper preferred installer as well as belonging to a few other programs. They are a bit confining with what they offer for payment or reimbursement. Over the years I've learned a lot. At first I would just accept what they offered and deal with it. Bit by bit either by the appraiser on the phone when dealing with a warranty claim or when an appraiser came to my shop inspected and wrote an order for a vehicle. First and foremost is never write an order. I tell the appraiser or warranty claim "expert" I haven't one and let or make them do the work and fax or e/mail me a copy. Then I look it over and pick it apart in my time not theirs and especially when I'm on the phone. I want as little distractions as possible. Right away when I started doing it this way I discovered .3's and .5's I never dreamed of adding to the order. After a while I ran across a few more and use them almost on every claim. The less information you can give without looking foolish the better. I've had appraisers tell me that they won't pay for chemicals or time it takes to push vehicles into the shop. With these jobs I'll add extra time for hand cleaning and add $90.00 to an order for the initial time for a tow truck when they won't pay .5 to push it in. I heard on N.C.I.S. one time that one of the rules is on occasion "It's better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission" and it's true. Sometimes I contact the customer and tell them that the warranty or insurance company will only pay so much and I was told that the rest is the owners responsibility and suggest that they call their insurance agent or the manufacturer of the part in question. About 40% of the time things get so much more friendly and profitable. Another thing I do is informing the warranty company that I have a shop policy of $35 a day storage if a vehicle sits any longer than two days without a consent to repair agreement and after 10 days I have the right to decline the work and collect the storage fee. Insurance companies don't pay and storage fee's if the work is done and sometimes a vehicle will sit on my lot for weeks. Most of the time I just accept that but on a few occasions if it's been real rocky and especially if the vehicle has been inside my shop tying up a lift I'll push the issue and won't back down until some sort of an agreement is reached.
Over the years I've been told by an appraiser or warranty tech/appraiser that they spent years as a mechanic, manager, shop owner, service writer, etc and got fed up with all the issues and decided to change jobs but stay in the automotive industry field so they do this now. At first I thought that they knew all about both sides and either I will be treated fairly or beat up since this guy was a professional. I couldn't have been more incorrect. For the most part I now feel its no more than a bluff to make us as mechanics or shop owners feel that we are in a position where we aren't going to get any wiggle room or made to feel by the appraiser that he's one of us and will thank him for an extra .5 on something and not want to bother him any more. Most of the time I approach these issues like I would prepare for a fist fight or something along those lines. I once had an appraiser come to my shop to inspect a vandalized engine. Someone had filled the throttle bore with sand and obviously the engine blew. This adjuster walked over to the vehicle, looked into the empty engine compartment and told me that the engine was missing. Could this be a tip of what kind of adjuster I was dealing with? He insisted on a complete tear down so I didn't point to the bore scope I used to inspect the cylinder walls and told him I didn't have any estimate as of yet and wanted an authorization from him for the teardown. I ended up with 14 hours for a removal and teardown. The engine was totaled and customer paid the extra for a Jasper engine. I called the insurance company and explained that Jasper wouldn't accept tear downs as cores so I needed a supplement for either a core or a reassemble. Again I try not to produce an estimate until I see theirs. I got paid to assemble the engine and since there was no system that showed a time to slap heads, intake, two pistons, and oil pan back on I agreed on 5 hours, I believe the time allowed by the books were around 10 or 12 hours. I have found especially in my dealings with issues we are talking about most of my money is made by being well aware of how things work and how, how hard and where to push. Just a quick example before I go. Let's use the Ranger for an example. Obviously the oil needs to be changed along with the filter. The filter may be classified as not needing to be changed. Motor had to be removed and it got dented. Why didn't you take it off so it could be reused? I wanted to protect the filters mounting threads and gasket surface from dings and scratches. If the engine used needed the oil pan swapped to it I would push for a new pan because the mounting holes are most likely stretched and thin making a seal almost impossible. If it's denied I'll ask for it in writing and mention responsibility if the customer comes back in with another oil leak all the while making it perfectly clear a leak is why it's in my shop. I would also add a drain plug and gasket or just a gasket if the plug was already replaced. Stand firm on the price of oil and the filter especially when they say that they don't pay for fluids. I would probably reply you would happily have the vehicle towed to and back from one of the cheaper priced lube shacks to stick to the allowed amount ending with it will include an additional 160 dollar, the cost for two picks by the tow truck. When I'm told that they won't pay for hazardous waste I tell them that the cost for a Federal Approved container to transport drivetrain fluids is around 300 dollars because the customer is taking it with them when they leave. In addition to the container they will receive a folder containing all the paperwork with a few key paragraphs highlighted. They try to get away with anything they can by shaking the tree and seeing what falls. Our job it to pick, probe, jab, enlist the customer, call the customers agent,. make it known I charge or excessive time on the phone resolving issues that never should have been there in the first place, will push storage charges and request physical inspections rather than settling it over the phone because the highly trained adjuster may pick up on something I'm missing avoiding an embarrassing phone call I would need to make. Got to run now, have a great day.
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Re: 2007 Ford Ranger 2.3L A/T - Main Oil Seal Time?

Post by Rich »

I like to just sell it all to the warranty company... It show 5.0 hours, they say 4.0, i just say OK. then they hammer you on parts. I just make sure when they say we will pay 451.00 of the 851.00 i pay attention. Then make a note that the warranty company would only pay 451.00 of the bill. The customer is the one that bought the warrenty. The car dealer made the money, the warranty company made the money. Why should we take a loss? Most of the time the customer understands and is happy that some of it was covered.
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Re: 2007 Ford Ranger 2.3L A/T - Main Oil Seal Time?

Post by Sauvageaus »

steven kiser wrote:Since I'm just sitting at the shop counter waiting for the place to warm up and the Naprosin to kick in I thought of a few little tips I've learned along the way in dealing with warranty, insurance, and other third party payment systems. They will do whatever it takes to save their company money because it's their job. I don't look at it and deal with it at a personal level. Many of these companies utilize a minimum of two labor guides. They will ask what system I use and then start mumbling and asking how my day is and other stuff and all the while they usually have Mitchell and All Data already on their screen and are looking for the cheapest one to quote off of. They will come back at you using the cheapest one and sometimes try to lay the "It will take less time since it was just out" line on you. No where does it say in any labor guide that it takes less time. Always start way high and never agree to what they say right off. Look at the description in the guide as to what you are doing includes then think of everything else that has to be done and write it down on a piece of paper. I'll use this job as an example and hopefully a few things will help. To diagnose this issue I would steam clean vehicle (one hour) put on lift and go over it add dye and road test, recheck to confirm (one hour) start a work order, contact manufacturer (.5). These are a few quick additional charges I would immediately add to order. .5 to R&R hood, .3 to unlock or program radio, .5 prep time and make sure they know you always use plastic on fenders, tape it down and use seat and steering wheel covers .5 to examine crank shaft for damage and amount of side to side walk checking for possible main bearing wear, .5 to package and mail defective seal plus postage fee, .5 to check for good positive crankcase ventilation, and one hour to properly road test vehicle at around town and highway speeds not forgetting under a load and passing speeds. As a rule I usually am able to add a few hours to the job. If you or someone you know knows an insurance appraiser ask him what can be added to an order. I have a buddy that is an appraiser and during the time we were really tight I asked him and was a bit stunned at what they would pay for as an additional charge. They won't tell you but will allow it if you ask. If all these items and possibly a few more if I really looked into it (don't forget the oil used in diagnosing) were added to this order you would most likely have to give up a few (I would leave them on the order and show them as a discount) but a few will be allowed and it doesn't take many to give you a few extra hours plus materials.
Well the Engine we put it in was for O'Reilly's, they're right next door to us so we do a good amount of business with them. The Engine place told them they won't pay for all of it to them before we even started. So O'Reilly's is going to pay the difference and I don't really want to lay it on them when they have helped us out many times in tough spots.
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Re: 2007 Ford Ranger 2.3L A/T - Main Oil Seal Time?

Post by steven kiser »

Rich wrote:I like to just sell it all to the warranty company... It show 5.0 hours, they say 4.0, i just say OK. then they hammer you on parts. I just make sure when they say we will pay 451.00 of the 851.00 i pay attention. Then make a note that the warranty company would only pay 451.00 of the bill. The customer is the one that bought the warrenty. The car dealer made the money, the warranty company made the money. Why should we take a loss? Most of the time the customer understands and is happy that some of it was covered.
Game changer here. A customer, a great, a good, or a so so one comes in with an issue that has nothing to do with anything I did in my shop any rules of Ying and Yang are gone. If I'm dealing with a warranty on a vehicle that was purchased at a dealer either extending the factory one on a new vehicle or on a used one the customer is responsible for any difference. I'll quote a job with all the extras I add but since it's a warranty company I have no attachments to the customer is responsible for the remainder. Looking at the overall picture regarding warranty and insurance claims it's a muddy multi angled Alligator infested pond. I represent a few different manufacturers as a warranty shop. Jasper is one and I'll use this as an example, If I install a Jasper unit and within the warranty period I will accept the Jasper payment with no additional cost to the customer. If I didn't install it then the issue of customer financial involvement comes into play. If it's a fairly simple repair and Jasper is willing to come close to my labor claim and the shop that did the work is a Jasper preferred like I am I may accept the amount paid by Jasper. However, if it was a shop that isn't affiliated with Jasper I will charge the person the difference. I, as we all do, see vehicles in our shops with shoddy work done involving a part with a warranty. This is a killer because the person owning the vehicle expects the work done right away and at no cost. Families on vacation, business vehicles and the rest all expect golden gloved treatment partially because this is what the initial installer told them. First off I ask to see or show them the warranty information associated with the product. Then I explain to them how things work in my shop and what is expected. I don't drop what I'm doing and make theirs a priority but I do have a soft spot for a family on vacation so I will accelerate it a bit the best I can. I've found that a lot of people really have no idea what the warranty they purchased or were given includes. They assume it covers everything nd I become the bearer of bad news. Some companies require a tear down that they won't pay for and this is a great one to tell a person. I had a person bring his Saab into my shop with major issues and he had purchased a very expensive protection plan that covered everything except normal maintenance. I got an estimate together and then spent hours upon hours on the phone. Over a two day period I probably called them 50 times and hung up after waiting 15 minutes or better or someone to answer. The customer tried at home as well with the same results. Finally I got someone and was told that the warranty company had filed and gone out of business. This person worked for the company that the court had put in charge of claims and was only paying 40% of the claims. I got all the information I could from him including key lookup prompts and his direct number. I printed out information I got on line and along with the persons phone number turned it over to the customer explaining to him that under the circumstances I would only do the work if he paid me and dealt with the warranty company himself. Apparently it was taken as an insult and after I was paid for my diagnostic and research ime I allowed the vehicle to be towed to another shop that would deal with his warranty company. Funny thing about this case was a local shop I from time to time do repair work for called and asked me for an estimate on a Saab. Other than the dealer and a few other not so local shops I had the Saab cards for my Tech 2. I did the work, got paid and they got screwed a bit. I have pretty much lost all direction on what I'm saying and don't have time to read the post trying to regain it. So instead of deleting it I'm letting it fly and seek it's own roosting place. Enjoy and please be kind.................................................. :lol:
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Re: 2007 Ford Ranger 2.3L A/T - Main Oil Seal Time?

Post by steven kiser »

Well the Engine we put it in was for O'Reilly's, they're right next door to us so we do a good amount of business with them. The Engine place told them they won't pay for all of it to them before we even started. So O'Reilly's is going to pay the difference and I don't really want to lay it on them when they have helped us out many times in tough spots.

Really? It's not personal and all my vendors help me out from time to time. My feeling on that is they better help me out of bad spots from time to time. Lets say something I installed from Advanced failed in a short time. The customer was loaded up for a weeks vacation hen all this part picked this time to fail. I get a panicked call from my customer and a replacement part isn't available for two days. The kids are crying and the parents are pissed. I rent a Mini Van, bring it to their house, help them unload their car and load this one. Wave and wish them a happy vacation. In the last 4 hours I've jumped through hoops, paid top dollar for a rental and had the vehicle towed to my shop. Advanced knows all this and how displeased I am. They know all my techs are top notch so most likely the issue was diagnosed properly and installed correctly. Now like most companies are starting to do Advanced will supply the part but pay no labor, or so I've been told but this has no bearing on my point. In a not so small but not so big way I expect a call from the manager telling me they were going to take care of all my costs or say it when I call ask them what are they going to do. This is business and as your parts supplier should help you out of problems as much as possible. The money you spend with them pays a part in their bonuses, pay checks, perks, etc. If I got burned on this and started dealing more with another supplier their bottom line and paid weekends away would stop. In this instance especially with them right next door and I'm sure they are your primary I wouldn't give two hoots if their supplier won't pay anything towards it. If you go to a five star Steak place and your prime rib sucks, you complain to the waiter and he tells you to take your complaint to the ranch owner in Montana where the cow was raised, are you going to hop on a plane or tell the manager to shove the bill in his Breezeway? Getting back to the parts store now. Advanced stands the chance of me getting good and pissed and knowing how bull headed I am may possibly loose my business and 15 to 20k a month would hurt. If you were in their shoes what would you do. I know what I would do if it were me, and so do you because it's the way I handled the part failing.
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Re: 2007 Ford Ranger 2.3L A/T - Main Oil Seal Time?

Post by Sauvageaus »

steven kiser wrote:Well the Engine we put it in was for O'Reilly's, they're right next door to us so we do a good amount of business with them. The Engine place told them they won't pay for all of it to them before we even started. So O'Reilly's is going to pay the difference and I don't really want to lay it on them when they have helped us out many times in tough spots.

Really? It's not personal and all my vendors help me out from time to time. My feeling on that is they better help me out of bad spots from time to time. Lets say something I installed from Advanced failed in a short time. The customer was loaded up for a weeks vacation hen all this part picked this time to fail. I get a panicked call from my customer and a replacement part isn't available for two days. The kids are crying and the parents are pissed. I rent a Mini Van, bring it to their house, help them unload their car and load this one. Wave and wish them a happy vacation. In the last 4 hours I've jumped through hoops, paid top dollar for a rental and had the vehicle towed to my shop. Advanced knows all this and how displeased I am. They know all my techs are top notch so most likely the issue was diagnosed properly and installed correctly. Now like most companies are starting to do Advanced will supply the part but pay no labor, or so I've been told but this has no bearing on my point. In a not so small but not so big way I expect a call from the manager telling me they were going to take care of all my costs or say it when I call ask them what are they going to do. This is business and as your parts supplier should help you out of problems as much as possible. The money you spend with them pays a part in their bonuses, pay checks, perks, etc. If I got burned on this and started dealing more with another supplier their bottom line and paid weekends away would stop. In this instance especially with them right next door and I'm sure they are your primary I wouldn't give two hoots if their supplier won't pay anything towards it. If you go to a five star Steak place and your prime rib sucks, you complain to the waiter and he tells you to take your complaint to the ranch owner in Montana where the cow was raised, are you going to hop on a plane or tell the manager to shove the bill in his Breezeway? Getting back to the parts store now. Advanced stands the chance of me getting good and pissed and knowing how bull headed I am may possibly loose my business and 15 to 20k a month would hurt. If you were in their shoes what would you do. I know what I would do if it were me, and so do you because it's the way I handled the part failing.
So Advanced knows how displeased you are? I get what you did was good and helping out the customer. I'm not saying Advanced shouldn't help you out in this situation, but for you to be displeased on mad over a part failing, we've been in the business a long time, parts fail and we all know that. No need to give Advanced a hard time (not sure how you handled it) All I would say is what would you guys be able to do to help our customer in this situation, but I wouldn't get mad about a part failure. Unless it happens numerous times.
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