2006 Ford F350 Super Duty - 6.0L Crank/No Start?

[MarionB2BAuto]

OK guys, I would be grateful for any help I can get here. I have in my shop a 2006 Ford F350 Superduty with the 6.0 diesel. Customer brought it to me with an intermittent cranks but won't start. When cold it seems to fire off just fine, so far. After driven and warms up, it then has a problem.

When he first came in customer stated that after an oil change is when this started. Originally we had a suspected IPR valve issue because the IPR pressure seemed to ramp up too slow when it was cold. Suspecting possible clogged IPR screen/filter, I recommended we consider a filter screen kit for it, but the customer wanted to go ahead and replace the entire valve, since we will be in there anyway. So we replaced the valve. Pressure ramped up FAST now, and gets to 80% quickly, however it won't start. We learned that if you applied a small squirt of starter fluid (yes, I know, not a good idea, but when you are chasing a problem, you do what you have to) then the truck fires off instantly, and runs fine after that. Customer says once the truck is running he has no problems, and this is a company work truck, so it gets used to tow heavy trailers and equipment. He doesn't have any issues with performance once it is started. I have not heard of it on the Fords, but I do know that the GM trucks will fall on their faces with a dirty fuel filter. (I can say this because I was a diesel tech for GM for 5 years!) Do any of you have suggestions? I have a snapshot of the data stream when engine is running saved on my MaxiDAS scanner if running info is wanted. Thanks in advance for any help!

[Tim Martin]

During cranking the engine over, is there any smoke coming out of the tailpipe?

[MarionB2BAuto]

No smoke that I can see. never saw any in the other trucks I have worked on either. at least not when cranking on them. What is to be expected?

[Tim Martin]

What is to be expected?

If there is smoke coming out of the tailpipe and the engine fails to start, we would be focusing on the glow plug system. beings there is no smoke, we have to turn our focus on the fuel and high pressure oil system.

Do you have any way to check what the fuel pressure is when cranking the engine over?

Also, what is the cranking rpm? We have seen some 6.0s fail to start if the engine cranks over too slowly due to either a weak starter or weak batteries.

[liljoe]

The 80% is the duty cycle of the valve, not the pressure. You need to look at the IPC pressure, it has to be over 500 psi for the pcm to comand te FICM to pulse injectors. Sounds like a leak in the high presure system. That is most common prolem causing 6.0 no/hard hot restart.

[steven kiser]

We had one come in like that and although no one readily admitted to it i firmly believe it was fired up and run at the "Jimmy Lube" with no oil in it. If the base oil pump is weak it will cause long warm crank issues simply because it can't charge the high pressure pump and trigger the injectors. We have four or five customers that have fleets of these babies and we've found that when we use Rotella motor oil and change it every 5 thousand miles ot less on the idlers we've significantly reduced failures. I had one customer call with issues like this right after a Spiffy oil change and i asked him to check the oil level and it didn't show on the stick. As anyone with 1/2 a brain knows these take more than 6 quarts.

If i were you i would give it a snap of WD40, i really will not use anything else unless it's below 40 degrees, let it run for a while, shut it down, clear any codes, fire it up again, let it run, shut it down again, fire it up and let it run. I will drive during each start up and let it run for about an hour. I try to create drive cycles. After the second try to start it without the WD and crank it for about 15 seconds but not more than 30 or you may burn up the starter. They'll take the cranking time. Then scan it and see what you have. If the pump is bad (like i think) you'll get contribution codes from three or four injectors.

I quickly looked up a TSB and found 05-19-14 that describes almost exactly what you're talking about. There seems to be a relearn procedure. There is another 10-12-6 that describes a fail because of an electrical fail. There was a few discussing symptoms just like this because of incorrect oil viscosity. If it were in my shop i would replace the oil and filter (**** canning the aftermarket filter cap combo if used and going back to oem, had a few of these leak on me) and use rotella. Juice the start like you've been doing then run it a while. Shut down and see what happens.

[MarionB2BAuto]

Lots of good information from all of you. I will look at the data more directly and see what I can find. This morning when I went to start it cold (sat since Saturday afternoon) It cranked for about 5-7 seconds and then started right up. After it started it seemed to initially idle fine. I didn't let it run for long since the problem is after it warms up. Oil viscosity is sounding pretty good since after it warms up it doesn't want to start, and the oil will be at it's thinnest then, so something to look into. I will also verify oil level since all of this started after I believe he said he got the oil changed.

[brianp87]

Oil pressure issue is common lots of internal oil leaks on these things. They are a bear to find.

[Tim Martin]

Oh ......

it is sounding more like a high pressure oil leak somewhere in the system. Agreed that the specific leak may be difficult if not impossible to locate. Highly advise removing rocker covers and replacing all orings on rails and injectors. If he is really into resealing the system, remove turbo and seal the branch tubes and quick couplers as well.

Quite a job

[MarionB2BAuto]

Before I go replacing any parts I want to find the actual failure first. I am not into the shotgun approach in finding a problem. That is why I am taking so long in troubleshooting. So far the highest probability here are two things: Oil viscosity incorrect (due to recent oil change when the problem first showed up) OR it could be the IPR valve having problems when it gets hot. All of the problems are on hot starts. Though it takes longer than I would want, the truck starts up cold EVERY time. The problem is after it gets hot, and this did not start until after the oil change. This is why we are going to do an oil change first, because the customer himself is not sure if the correct oil was put in, and requested that we change the oil to be sure. (at his request)

[liljoe]

If the oil change does not fix the problem, I would run with the V.C.s off and look for any oil leakage that is higher then comparable places on other cylinders, (injectors, stand pipes, dummy pipes, ect..) ........

[brianp87]

I have seen these have starting issues after lof's using the correct oil. If I had to bet id bet on an internal oil leak.

[liljoe]

I have seen these have starting issues after lof's using the correct oil. If I had to bet id bet on an internal oil leak.

Me2

[MarionB2BAuto]

While an internal oil leak is obviously possible, I just find it hard to believe that the truck has been running fine until the oil change. also, it starts up fine when cold. Wouldn't an internal leak cause this problem all the time? Or am I missing something?

[brianp87]

I see it all the time. DO a google search on it. I think it would be wise and save yourself a ton of time by looking in that direction. Just wait tell you are the one that changes the oil and it wont start. Do enough lofs and it will happen.

[brianp87]

http://www.forddoctorsdts.com/articles/ ... -05-17.php

[liljoe]

The high pressure system is a very low volume high pressure system, it does not take much of a leak to be more then the HPOP can overcome at cranking speed. When you decide to re-seal everything, Ford will tell you that the injector seals at the top of the injector are not available, but you can get them from Alliant power, part#AP0002, one per injector. Here is a vid on replacing the seals in the injectors, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhBiyoLcSzM . When truck will not start, look at scanner and see what the psi is and the % also, you should not have to hit 80% during cranking to excede the 500psi needed for PCM to fire injectors. If the screen on the end of the IPR was free of metal shavings, the HPOP is prob OK. All of them I have replaced have had shavings on the IPR screen.

[brianp87]

Joe sees way more of these then I do Id take his advice.

[Tim Martin]

While an internal oil leak is obviously possible, I just find it hard to believe that the truck has been running fine until the oil change

Some of us were also at that point at one time. I seen it so often in the last few years. I would not have thought that an oil change would a been the cause of a major starting issue either but I been there and proven it so often.

I agree with Joe about the scanner numbers - pressures and percentages. There is little use to remove the rocker cover to locate an oil leak. Once the decision is made to address the oil leak issue, the only way to correct the problem is to do it right the first time and replace all the orings and seals in the high pressure oil system including the ones under the turbocharger at the high pressure oil pump quick couplers. Actually there is an updated and improved quick coupler I believe.

[MarionB2BAuto]

I am currently waiting on a response from the customer. After performing a fresh oil change you could tell that the original oil was much thinner than it should be. We checked to be sure, but it had the consistency of a 50/50 mix of oil and diesel. (We drained out exactly 15 quarts, and there was no actual diesel fuel IN the oil, just trying to describe the consistency) After the oil change the truck started as normal cold again. It was test drove and we allowed it to sit the normal time period that was causing the problems before. It has started fine now both hot and cold and customer has taken delivery and will call me if there are any problems. Thanks for the help. We will be looking at the seal replacement mentioned if he returns with the same problem.