Carfax Wrong?

[Cathy Kulp]

I have recently had 2 customers complaint because carfax is reporting the vehicle they want to trade in may be a mileage roll back. Carfax gathered this information from my records. However I checked my records and it happened to be the fact that they used the same license number. I checked my history and found that when you use the same license number and reprint the first cars history it changes the vin # to the most recent vin #! The year,make and model does not change, why does the vin # ? Maybe we are not using the correct way to delete old vehicles.

Problem 2: I also noticed that if you have been telling someone in notes for 1 year that they should change their trans fluid. They change it after they start having problems a year later. You bill it and remove that note. 1 week later they say they need a transmission. You say well I have been telling you for a year to take care of it. You go back to their history to show them the notes. Because you removed it the last time it does not show up in history. I feel that anything you do in the present should not be changing the past records? How can these items be repaired.

[timbre4]

I believe both of these issues are preventable on your side.

Do not re-use a vehicle record where the licence plate is kept but the vehicle YMM changes. Here's a procdeure most shops follow to re-use the plate and establish a fresh clean vehicle record:

1. Lookup the customer's old vehicle on the Vehicle screen
2. Delete the license plate characters
3. Click Exit and when asked "Are you deleting this license plate?" Answer YES. [frees it up to be used on another vehicle]
4. Get back to the Vehicle screen for that custoemr and click New.
5. Enter the new vehicle YMM info (or just enter the license plate now that the software will allow, if YMM already entered)
6. Save new vehicle information? YES

On this other issue please clarify if you used Notes or Recommendations about the transmission fluid. Here is what you need to know:

1. A Note line added to an order remains with that posted Invoice forever*. [*forever unless someone unposts the invoice and removes it]

2. A Recommendation is a placeholder for recording observed needs with category and dates so that the sales of such work is greatly increased. This data belongs to the vehicle in the present tense. Once the work has been performed, the Recommendation is generally deleted because it has served it's purpose.

Additionally, I know that some shops who want to avoid liability will work it into their invoice that "customer declined" the work. I'm sure a number of shops can comment on this.

[ricmorin]

On problem 1, are you saying you created a new vehicle using a previous license number and the history between the two records are tangled? How did you go about moving the plate number?

On problem 2, it's true that electronic history does not show which recommendations were present at the time of posting. We print 2 copies of the final invoice. One for the customer to sign which we retain and one for the customer. We would simply provide those copies for the customer to see. Additionally, with the customer signature we KNOW he/she had the opportunity to SEE those recommendations. Hard to argue with that.

[Cathy Kulp]

Thank you again for your quick response. I tested this and it seems to fix the problem. I will make a cheat sheet for all personnel who may have to delete vehicles to insure it is done correctly!
I just have no idea how many may have been done wrong and it we will have more issues. I think carfax should atleast TRY to contact the facuility to right it before they release it!
As for problem #2 I also understand that using notes stay and recommendation delete. We do tell the customer and have them sign our bills. However nobody goes as far as to pull out the old copies. We are going to correct that also
Thanks Again

[timbre4]

You're most welcome.

Keep in mind that ONLY the vehicles that have been VIN decoded by CarFAX will have any exposure, not your entire vehicle list.

[Rich]

Cathy,

A side note. IF you find a vehicle that will not allow you to delete the plate #. Check the manufacture date. We have found that is you have 00/00/0000, the plate will NOT delete. Make up a date like 01/01/1967 and then you can delete the plate.

[steven kiser]

Any time i move a plate from one car to another i always add a period at the end. This creates a new customer file. I just find it so much easier especially when i need to look up warranty claim or something. A good percentage of my change overs involve parents to children to siblings still being dealt with by the parents.

I'm a fairly small operation with approximately 10-15 vehicles a day so i usually meet and greet and know what's going on in my system. If i hired a service writer i could see an initial issue with the way i do it.

However an issue that i've run into with carfax is on a few occasions (more than two less than 10) i've received phone calls from people, some pushy some not, that have purchased vehicles that have repairs recorded by carfax that were performed at my shop. I got questioned about what i had done to the vehicles and why and with the thought of new perspective customers i engaged in conversation. I'm not ashamed of any repair that comes out of my shop and admittedly not the cheapest on the block. I have gotten a few new customers because they were happy with what they saw. I had one that accused me of deceiving a dealer and through the dealer him. The vehicle had a weak transmission and i suggested that if the customer had any thought of trading it in then this was the time. I wrote that on the order and it was seen through the carfax. The note on the order was a communication between the customer and me.

[ARS]

We are also are having problems with Problem 1. What do you do if the vehicle has already been stacked on top of another vehicle in the history that had the same license plate? We have not been stacking vehicles for the last 1 1/2. With the 5.9 Mitchell if you looked in history you could see the two different vehicles & when the transition had taken place. When we transferred to Manager Plus SU 6.4.521 the history changed so you do not see the different vehicles. Why did that change???? This has really become a problem when printing history tickets or even looking up what services had been done to the current vehicle. This glitch really needs to get fixed & put back to how it was in 5.9. We do not stack vehicles anymore.

Problem 2: We have also noticed that if you print a history ticket for a warranty issue or whatever, it shows the current Recommendations on the history ticket. This does not seem right.

Problem 3: We have noticed in the last 2-3 days that VIN numbers are getting switched to another vehicle that the customer has when using the CARFAX DECODE button. I do not know if this has happened before this but this is when we noticed it. Today, I physically saw it happen. The customer has a 95 Chevy G20 Van & a 91 F150. When I hit the decode button, the G20 turned into the F150. The Vin, Make & Model, etc. The History Tickets also of course changed. So I had to pull the paper invoice to get the vehicles back in correctly in to computer. Has anyone else noticed any of these glitches while using the Decode button? As of now we have stopped using the decode button. Is Mitchell doing anything to fix this....

Please help!

[Cathy Kulp]

I am using 5.9 and I to have problems with information changing in history. As far as I am concerned unless you unpost something from history it should never be able to change. examples: when you get rid of a car and use the same license # on a new car, it should not change the history of the old car to the new one. Also notes: I noted on someones bill for 2 years that they should change the trans fluid, they finally came to have it done after trans was acting bad. I told them we can change it but it may be to late. After the job was done the trans was still bad, I went back in history to show them how many times I had told them about it and because we did it and deleted the note on the new bill, it deleted the note on all the previous bills. I feel this should not be happening. I also had issues with the carfax saying the vehicle mileage was rolled back. HELP

[ricmorin]

I am using 5.9 and I to have problems with information changing in history. As far as I am concerned unless you unpost something from history it should never be able to change. examples: when you get rid of a car and use the same license # on a new car, it should not change the history of the old car to the new one. Also notes: I noted on someones bill for 2 years that they should change the trans fluid, they finally came to have it done after trans was acting bad. I told them we can change it but it may be to late. After the job was done the trans was still bad, I went back in history to show them how many times I had told them about it and because we did it and deleted the note on the new bill, it deleted the note on all the previous bills. I feel this should not be happening. I also had issues with the carfax saying the vehicle mileage was rolled back. HELP

History should not change because you moved a plate from one vehicle to another. I have not seen this before.

Recommendations in Mitchell are 'active'. They are not directly attached to any one order. To show a customer history of recommendations, simply pull the signed copies and show them. People tend not to believe things on a screen, but signed documents seem to quiet the contentions.

The Carfax issue may be related to re-using a plate on a different vehicle. I seem to recall a thread on this. (oops, this may be THAT thread, LOL)

[ARS]

I agree that whatever is in history should be left alone..... even if vehicles are stacked then it should stay as the vehicle you did the work on. This gltich needs to be fixed in 6.2.

The CarFax issue that is happening to us (earlier post) does not have to do with the stacking of vehicles. The vehicles that is is happened to have not been stacked. The Vin actually changes to a different vehicle the customer has with a different license plate. When the VIN is switched the License plates do not change. That is how I can look up the paperwork & get the information re corrected. Anyone know what is going on here or had this problem?

[ricmorin]

Did this problem start after a correction of vin or license on either of these vehicles?

[ricmorin]

even if vehicles are stacked then it should stay as the vehicle you did the work on. This gltich needs to be fixed in 6.2.

Lets define stacking so we are all on the same page.

By 'stacking', are you referring to using the old vehicle record for a new vehicle because the plate is moving from the old to the new? So you change the YMM to match? If so, this is not the cleanest way to do this and would certainly cause history issues internally and externally.

I wouldn't consider the results of this method a glitch.

What should be done is a new record created and the plate number moved to the new record. I like putting an A after my 'old' record but some remove the entire plate number. Either way it keeps the two records from 'mixing'.

Or am I still not getting it?

[ARS]

YES- Stacking vehicles means there are two vehicles that have had the same license plate number. The first vehicle is the one that the customer either sold or got rid. Then the customer would get another vehicle & transfer the license plate to the newer vehicle. (We are a state that the License Plate states with the person as opposed to states that the license plate stays with the vehicle....we would benefit from Mitchell tracking vehicles by Vin & not License plate or do both). Anyway, when the new vehicle would come into our shop, the previous service writer would put the vehicle in & use the same vehicle file as the previous vehicle because they used the same license plate. So now we have stacked historys. In 5.9, Both Vehicles were shown in the History. So you could tell when the new vehicle first came in. But you still could see the older vehicle in case we were called about it for some reason. Now in 6.2 (maybe in 5.9 too according to the earlier post from Cathy), the Vehicle history is all the same vehicle no matter if that is the truth or not. This makes if very difficult to search what services have been done to the current vehicle & for warranty issues. This is also why people are getting calls from Carfax about rollbacks on odometer on vehicles. I have not stacked vehicles for a year & a 1/2. I know to delete the license & start a new file for the newer vehicle.
We also have started an account that is called SOLD VEHICLES in Mitchell that we move files to if the customer has sold the vehicle. That way we still have the history if needed but we do not have to ask the customer if they still have the vehicle or that we will not send them letters or other info on a vehicle they no longer have.
So I hope that is Clear as mud!!!

[timbre4]

You're starting to figure out how this is supposed to function, stand by for some further clarifications.

[timbre4]

This is reminding me of the old sketch where the patient says "Doc, it hurts when I do this, what should I do?" Doc says "Well then, stop doing it". You're asking for protection from a condition that SHOULD never exist with good housekeeping practices. Let's start at the beginning.

When a vehicle record is created in Manager by entering a Year, Make & Model and then saving it, it is assigned a vehicle record # by the software that it will always have. (you see it in the upper RH corder of Vehicle screen and on documents) There is no VIN # and there is no license plate until you add them on top of this basic structure. Good so far? Here's a sample vehicle:

Vehicle record #12345 = 2004 Acura TL,4D Sedan,3.2L,V6 (196CI) VIN(UA6), 5 speed Automatic BDGA
ADD: VIN = 19UUA66254Axxxxxx
ADD: License # = ABC123
NOTE: License # IS unique; it can only exist in one vehicle record at a time.

All is good so far. UNTIL somebody needs that license plate on a different car and they don't know how to free up that plate to use elsewhere:
FAQ - Swap Plate to Different Vehicle: http://m1faqs.com/knowledgemanager/ques ... stionid=81

Since somebody doesn't know to relase the plate from the vehicle record, the easiest way out is to overwrite vehicle record #12345 with different YMM information. You have just created your problem. Now Vehicle record #12345 = 2008 GMC Denali 6.0L etc and your history is messed up too.

The solutions are in next post.

[timbre4]

1. Stacking is an invalid process and the source of the troubles. It is possible to solve by creating legitimate vehicle records, correcting the original vehicle record back to it's original YMM, un-post invoices and re-assign to new vehicle record to restore order in the History department.

Advice to shop: Fix it or ignore it, don't do it anymore.

The Sold/Orphans file is a good idea.

2. The difference in History behavior between 5.9 and SE 6.4 when a vehicle record is altered is as follows:

In 5.9, the History invoice with the YMM as it ORIGINALLY existed *remains* in the History file exactly like a snapshot. The later Invoices for that vehicle record # with different YMM would display if the ownership remained the same.

In SE, the History invoice with the YMM as it ORIGINALLY existed *update* in the History file to match what the YMM is on the live side. This is why the "History is changing" concern was voiced.

Advice to shop: Do the steps in #1 (proper vehicle records) and then #2 ("why did history change") won't occur.

In summary, SE is designed to mimic the way 5.9 operates, there are some datahandling differences hiden below the surface. I do not expect this programming aspect to change, as we have other pressing priorities to move this product forward. Better houskeeping prevents this from happening.

[ARS]

Thank you for a clear answer to problem #1 that we have. We will be working on that.

Any Advice or help to problem #2 & #3, in the above post. Any help would be appreciated!

[timbre4]

The #2 behavior will not be changed, The Invoice in history represents the communication with the customer at thaty time. Suppose someone has an accident and blames you for not fixing the brakes; you'd be very glad that your Recommendation about the brakes was on file. Better yet, you can add a note this date to that Invoice that they declined the service. Better safe than sorry and it's not impeding business or adding anything that wasn't true when it was created.

As for #3, I referenced this with support and they have not heard from users other than the two shops in this forum thread. I'm concerned about the toggle switch selector on the Vehicle screen (1 of 3, 2 of 3, 3 of 3, etc) being used inadvertedly with a Decode button click after it. Be careful about changing vehicles and don't press the Decode after the initial VIN Decode step.

If you want support to check your database, you may contact them by email or phone.

[MarionB2BAuto]

The first problem is what makes me glad that I am in Alabama, where when you get rid of a car, the tag is to be destroyed. It does not transfer with the car, and the owner cannot transfer it to a new vehicle to reuse.