2001 Buick LeSabre - 3.8L P0341

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rma316
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2001 Buick LeSabre - 3.8L P0341

Post by rma316 »

We're currently fighting with a 2001 LeSabre, 3.8K engine throwing a code P0341 intermittently.

It will occasionally set a code without tripping the light on. The car runs great 99% of the time, even when the code is set, but intermittently hesitates and has stalled on the customer. Over the past couple of months it has had the camshaft sensor replaced, crankshaft position sensor, ignition module, one new ignition coil, camshaft position sensor wiring harness rerouted and checked for any damage, connections at camshaft sensor and PCM checked for proper connection. Camshaft sensor reads 5v KOEO away from magnet, reads .0013v with magnet aligned to it.

Kind of curious if anyone has run into one of these before and has any input?
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Re: 2001 Buick LeSabre - 3.8L P0341

Post by Tim Martin »

Well, your camshaft sensor readings are right on. Wow! This one is costing some frustration. I am wondering what brand of senors were installed. OEM or aftermarket? I have seen cases where non OEM sensors simply did not function to the liking of the PCM. Almost always, we install only OEM sensors. Another issue may be the PCM itself. Perhaps it needs to be reflashed. We have seen that a few times also.
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Re: 2001 Buick LeSabre - 3.8L P0341

Post by rma316 »

Tim Martin wrote:Well, your camshaft sensor readings are right on. Wow! This one is costing some frustration. I am wondering what brand of senors were installed. OEM or aftermarket? I have seen cases where non OEM sensors simply did not function to the liking of the PCM. Almost always, we install only OEM sensors. Another issue may be the PCM itself. Perhaps it needs to be reflashed. We have seen that a few times also.
Sorry, I forgot to mention that we are a former dealer and current AC Delco PSC and used all OEM parts. We have not tried anything with the PCM as none of the diagnoses or flow charts went down that road and I could not find any bulletins or preliminary information indicating any changes to that system. Might be worth looking into.
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Re: 2001 Buick LeSabre - 3.8L P0341

Post by Tim Martin »

We do reflashing and reprogramming here. Once we got into it, it was a surprise some of the changes that makes to a PCM in some cases. That is why I suggested that as a possibility in this case. Our conclusion is that over the years and miles, there might be a degradation of calibration within the PCM. In some instances, such as Ford, they make actual changes to some of the calibration settings, well, GM likely does some of that as well.
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Re: 2001 Buick LeSabre - 3.8L P0341

Post by steven kiser »

I did a quick look and noticed that a bad coil may cause this, intermittent ignition wire arcing and a mention of a faulty P.C.M.. Vehicle is over 15 years old and in my opinion would warrant all new coils (hope this is the one with three, I have a known working set we put to good use through the years) ignition wires, plugs along with the "dog bone" mounts we would remove to install the tool to roll the engine making the right plugs and packs easier to replace.
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Re: 2001 Buick LeSabre - 3.8L P0341

Post by rma316 »

steven kiser wrote:I did a quick look and noticed that a bad coil may cause this, intermittent ignition wire arcing and a mention of a faulty P.C.M.. Vehicle is over 15 years old and in my opinion would warrant all new coils (hope this is the one with three, I have a known working set we put to good use through the years) ignition wires, plugs along with the "dog bone" mounts we would remove to install the tool to roll the engine making the right plugs and packs easier to replace.
We have replaced one coil already, and have done a set of wires within the last 5000 miles. I suppose it could be one of the other coils, but it seems unlikely at this point. It's certainly a stumper for sure.
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Re: 2001 Buick LeSabre - 3.8L P0341

Post by steven kiser »

What would you do if this vehicle showed up at your shop with these symptoms and you've never worked on it prior? This is a step I use to try to eliminate any supposition on my part. In all the years I've been around getting stuck overlooking something because I assumed really sucks. I've seen so many failed new parts I could fill the bed of two or three pickup trucks. I try and usually succeed to look at something like this as a first time customer. It's so exasperating when you're neck deep in one of these overlooking a simple basic repair is almost a guarantee to me. I'm in one now so my heart goes out to you and hopefully I can take my own advice :lol: :lol:
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Re: 2001 Buick LeSabre - 3.8L P0341

Post by Tim Martin »

steven kiser wrote:What would you do if this vehicle showed up at your shop with these symptoms and you've never worked on it prior? This is a step I use to try to eliminate any supposition on my part. In all the years I've been around getting stuck overlooking something because I assumed really sucks. I've seen so many failed new parts I could fill the bed of two or three pickup trucks. I try and usually succeed to look at something like this as a first time customer. It's so exasperating when you're neck deep in one of these overlooking a simple basic repair is almost a guarantee to me. I'm in one now so my heart goes out to you and hopefully I can take my own advice :lol: :lol:
Yea, Steve, I often do the same thing in this kind of situation. And, as we both know by now, we cannot assume that the parts that were installed are actually good, and, we cannot assume that the parts were actually replaced in some cases.
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Re: 2001 Buick LeSabre - 3.8L P0341

Post by steven kiser »

A long time ago I discovered that assuming made a simple situation a difficult one. On occasion I've had customers just refuse to believe that something that they were already charged for couldn't be the problem and said that they were going to take it back to wherever. I got into the habit of either marking the part, taking a picture of it, or in one case the shop was one that really makes the bile bubble (still in operation) and vehicle owner was such a dick I removed the mounting bolts attaching the part to the block, cleaned them and the hole they went into and used aviation thread lock on them. This stuff is made to work like a weld. Other shop had to know but since they had already charged for the part and never replaced it what could they really say. Or maybe they didn't figure it out but all of the bolts would have to have been drilled out and it would almost be impossible to do without darn near lifting the engine out. This is the same shop who "replaced" a transmission in a car, I was told by the owner, and when I had it in the air to look at a leak pointed out to him that it was only painted where the paint could reach so it was never out and if that wasn't proof enough the overspray covered a lot of floor board.
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Re: 2001 Buick LeSabre - 3.8L P0341

Post by Tim Martin »

Yea, its like the car that came in several month back. Had a miss. Customer mentioned that 'he' replaced all plugs, wires, coils, pcv valve, air and fuel filters but still missed. He even went to one of these road side places that turns 'Check Engine' lights off for free and had them outen the light cause he said that even the light on will make the engine run bad. But, none of the above helped. So, we get it. After diagnosing and going through motions of several kinds, we found that he only replaced the plugs, wires, and coils that were the easy ones to get to. The more difficult ones were untouched. When I 'stopped' assuming the customer was telling the truth, I found the problem. He also installed wrong plugs. Once I installed correct spark plugs, the engine ran fine.

Having a spark plug tester, an ignition coil tester, and an ignition module tester has saved me time already in cases where I suspected a faulty part, especially when a customer said they replaced the parts.

And, in the case of the vehicle on this thread, I would be rechecking the parts I installed to verify good operation.
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Re: 2001 Buick LeSabre - 3.8L P0341

Post by 92zman »

Have you tried a new ign module. Have had this in the past that had a bad module and would set that code..
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Re: 2001 Buick LeSabre - 3.8L P0341

Post by steven kiser »

Must have found and repaired issue. It made my mind start up the way back memory gears and it felt pretty good.
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Re: 2001 Buick LeSabre - 3.8L P0341

Post by rma316 »

steven kiser wrote:Must have found and repaired issue. It made my mind start up the way back memory gears and it felt pretty good.
We have not found it yet. The customer has not been able to free the car up for us to have as much time with it as I would like. I have been keeping an eye on everything talked about in this thread and will be eager to try anything that the fine folks posting here have come up with as we are completely baffled by this as it sits.
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Re: 2001 Buick LeSabre - 3.8L P0341

Post by steven kiser »

Been a while since it was used and truthfully I can't remember who made it. Would guess Snap On since I'm a tool junkie and Snap On is my tool of choice. We had a recorder we would put in glove box or under dash and plugged in the lead to the OBD connector. Now please remember this was a while back and I would be thrilled if I could nail it down further to be definite but I still feel Snap On is the best bet. It would record live data with an overlap time of I believe 90 seconds so it had to be shut off after it recorded the issue or it would be lost. We could download it into our shop computer and have a look see what was going on. The app we had allowed us to look at all the wave forms along side what they should be so we could see any glitches. Basically we had 90 seconds of live data to watch. We were able to split the screen into four sections so we could watch four monitors. We were able to see Ox Sensors short in the blink on an eye causing one bank to skip a beat, Throttle sensor showing closed hen it was half because of a glitch in the winding that ended up causing a neutral drop in the transmission. The tool was priceless and right now I have no clue where it is or ho made it. Sorry and good luck. Thanks for letting me know you are still looking into it.
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Re: 2001 Buick LeSabre - 3.8L P0341

Post by ricmorin »

steven kiser wrote:Been a while since it was used and truthfully I can't remember who made it. Would guess Snap On since I'm a tool junkie and Snap On is my tool of choice. We had a recorder we would put in glove box or under dash and plugged in the lead to the OBD connector. Now please remember this was a while back and I would be thrilled if I could nail it down further to be definite but I still feel Snap On is the best bet. It would record live data with an overlap time of I believe 90 seconds so it had to be shut off after it recorded the issue or it would be lost. We could download it into our shop computer and have a look see what was going on. The app we had allowed us to look at all the wave forms along side what they should be so we could see any glitches. Basically we had 90 seconds of live data to watch. We were able to split the screen into four sections so we could watch four monitors. We were able to see Ox Sensors short in the blink on an eye causing one bank to skip a beat, Throttle sensor showing closed hen it was half because of a glitch in the winding that ended up causing a neutral drop in the transmission. The tool was priceless and right now I have no clue where it is or ho made it. Sorry and good luck. Thanks for letting me know you are still looking into it.
Would you be referring to the Dynamic Data Collector, otherwise known as the DDC? Something like this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUN-DDC-DYNAMIC ... Sw9eVXVeUM
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Re: 2001 Buick LeSabre - 3.8L P0341

Post by steven kiser »

I never used Sun equipment. I used OTC a bit years ago so it may have been that. I really can't be positive. I'll keep thinking and maybe the clouds and fog will part. :lol:
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